The Human Pop Podcast
The Human Pop Podcast explores what pop culture can teach us about ourselves. From movies to music to art, we dive into the ways our favorite stories and media shape our understanding of being human.
The Human Pop Podcast
Exploring the Impact and Authenticity of Kendrick Lamar's "To Pimp a Butterfly" with Sho Baraka
The episode dives into the profound layers of Kendrick Lamar's To Pimp a Butterfly, exploring themes of authenticity, cultural identity, and social commentary. The conversation provides listeners with insights into how Kendrick’s art resonates on both personal and societal levels, emphasizing the transformative power of music in reflecting and shaping humanity.
• Exploring Kendrick's authenticity versus performance
• The intricate melding of music genres in his work
• Discussion of social commentary in the album
• The impact of "Alright" as an anthem for social justice
• Personal reflections on the journey of becoming through music
• The importance of storytelling in Kendrick’s artistry
• Cultural significance of Kendrick's narratives in hip-hop
• Encouragement for listeners to engage meaningfully with art
***disclaimer: this episode was recorded before the release of "GNX"
About the Guest:
Amisho "Sho" Baraka is a self-described polymath. He has spent the last 17 years traveling the world as a recording artist, consultant, speaker and writer. Whether he is operating as a curator of culture or as a creative problem-solver, Sho is wisely discerning the times while attempting to bring restoration and redemption. Sho and his wife Patreece also act as ambassadors and advocates in the Autism community.
Follows us on the socials or just one social for now: @thehumanpoppodcast
It's Pop for Human Sake!
Hi everyone, I'm LaToya Tucciarone and this is the Human Pop Podcast. It's pop for humans' sake, and today I'm going to be talking to my buddy, Sho Baraka, and we're going to be breaking down Kendrick Lamar's album To Pimp a Butterfly. It's going to be a beautiful time. Thanks for joining us, joe. Thanks for coming on.
LaToya Tucciarone:it's so good to have you here exciting long time friend bro yes, long time it's been a while since we've seen each other, but oh but we have been friends for you get to that point where you want to forget how long it's been.
Sho Baraka:I know right, right, right, right, because it's like I don't want to show how old I am oh, that is true, it's been that long folks it's been that long absolutely so thanks again for coming on the show.
LaToya Tucciarone:Why don't you tell the folks a tell me about yourself.
Sho Baraka:I just the easiest way to describe me is a polymath, I'm a polymath so a person who does multiple things, but I think for the purposes of this particular podcast I am an artist, and a hip-hop artist. That's how most people came to know me, but through my hip-hop I guess you can say life. It afforded me the opportunity to be a professor and to teach about race politics, hip hop, so I think that that helps inform a lot about why I'm here. I guess you could say the nexus of my musical kind of life and academic life.
LaToya Tucciarone:Yeah, I think like you are like the perfect example of the breadth and width of the artist life. You know that you never have to be like defined by one thing that one thing speaks to another speaks to another. You know we did another show where a friend talked about like hermeneutics and how that ease has even taught him about film.
LaToya Tucciarone:You know and how all of these things kind of layer you know, cause sometimes people can be like oh, I'm an artist, I'm a painter, painter, that's what I am. But how our art can lead us into other yeah genres I think you know I will say this.
Sho Baraka:I do stand on the shoulders of artists before me and I think you know individuals like Q-tip, individuals like Questlove Bun B, who have had wonderful careers in the industry but have transitioned into some of your academic spaces, some people who are like curators for museums or et cetera. So it's great to see that they've done it.
LaToya Tucciarone:And.
Sho Baraka:I had aspirations of being that person before them, but it was just an affirmation like oh, now I know that I can do it. And I think it's more common for individuals to see that they can expand themselves outside of not only just hip hop, but also outside of creative work and vocation. So that's some of my aspiration is not only just to do it, but to be an inspiration for other people.
LaToya Tucciarone:I love it. I'm actually going to put a pin in that because actually there's something. I want to circle back on that a little bit later. But tell me about pop culture. So you have been a lover of pop culture. That's one of the reasons why I asked you to be on the show. You're very knowledgeable about pop culture, but when did you kind of when do you feel like you first got exposed to pop culture? What has pop culture meant to you and your development as an artist, in a person?
Sho Baraka:um, I think exposure to pop culture is like exposure to whiteness in this country you don't really have a choice. No, I just I know you appreciate that, um, unless you're a fundamentalist Christian.
LaToya Tucciarone:And then you.
Sho Baraka:It was kept from you, but not the whiteness, but the pop culture. So for me, I think I came out the womb. I remember some of my earliest memories. This is no joke. Some of my earliest memories of being reared as a child had to do with either film or music. I one of my earliest memories. I remember being in a theater watching Purple Rain.
LaToya Tucciarone:So first of all, right, you shouldn't be watching Purple Rain as a child and I was.
Sho Baraka:That was the 80s, so I'm pretty sure I was no older than like five, six or seven at the time.
LaToya Tucciarone:Right, right right.
Sho Baraka:And as I go back and I watch films like that, I'm like what in the world are my parents thinking, why was I there? Also, you got to understand hip hop was coming into a place of pop culture. It was before, it was kind of like a niche thing, but now it's being played on radio. And so I have two older brothers, but my oldest brother six years older than me. You know you have someone who's six years older than you. They're going to be formative in how you know your identity, cultivating your identity cultivation. And so Run DMC, fat Boys, all the LL Cool J, salt and Pepper, like he was playing those records or cassettes. And so I'm like a young boy, like what is this? This sounds much different from what than Prince and Al Jarreau, whoever else is. My parents are listening to Stevie Wonder and so that's stuck.
Sho Baraka:And so yeah, and move films as well yep uh, well, I already mentioned uh, but hip-hop films, like some of you listeners, you wild style, uh, breaking, breaking, um, what's the one I'm um, what is the one that I'm missing right now? So, anyway, crush groove was another one. So yeah, those are films that I watched as a young child and I was like this is, for some reason, this is me.
LaToya Tucciarone:Right, this is something that I identify with. You could completely identify with it, so that was pop culture.
Sho Baraka:That was when I fell in love and kind of identified myself as a consumer of it, if you will, without knowing I was an actual consumer.
LaToya Tucciarone:And then obviously it greatly influenced you enough to say I want to be an artist. Yeah, so how that?
Sho Baraka:kind of happened was. It was actually I didn't really think that I wanted to rap, but my parents introduced me to lots of poetry, yes, so through, like the Harlem Renaissance, through Amiri Baraka or different people. I would find this like desire to write poetry. And then, not until I got to high school, did I realize that girls like rappers more than they like poets. I was like, oh, let me do this pivot and do this hip-hop thing yeah.
LaToya Tucciarone:You nerds who are doing these poems.
Sho Baraka:So yeah, that's how I got into hip hop. It was much later.
LaToya Tucciarone:I was more of a storyteller.
Sho Baraka:I love writing. I wanted to be a novelist, a storyteller and a poet.
LaToya Tucciarone:Wow.
Sho Baraka:And so it's funny how those people who may know me, it's funny how I kind of put that in the back burner and now I'm returning to the I was about to say it's like a full, full circle, absolutely moment.
LaToya Tucciarone:You just had to get those girls first.
Sho Baraka:I had to get that girl, that girl one girl.
LaToya Tucciarone:I'll put you in very, very clear, and then you return back to yourself. Then I return back to my as an artist, absolutely and I love that because it's not like, but you're still making music.
Sho Baraka:Absolutely.
LaToya Tucciarone:So again, those things are not two separate things.
Sho Baraka:Yeah, I think it's. They build on each other. They all come from the same family tree. Right, right, right they're just one large stump of storytelling.
LaToya Tucciarone:Yeah.
Sho Baraka:And storytelling, you have these branches Right and yeah. And storytelling, you have these branches Right and yeah.
LaToya Tucciarone:I think that's one of the things I love the most about culture pop culture, art is the storytelling aspect, and you can tell a story from a moment, from a sculpture. You can tell a story Earlier today talking to somebody about Monet's haystacks and this man painted 26 different versions of a haystack and you're like what in the world? But the emotions and what you feel from that, and he is telling a story. He's telling a story of light, of time, of moments.
LaToya Tucciarone:So it's just so beautiful how all of these different arts can tell a story. And speaking of stories, you have chosen to come on the show and to talk about Kendrick Lamar.
Sho Baraka:The greatest hip hop artist. Oh second greatest hip hop artist of all time, after myself Of course, of course. No, yeah, Kendrick Lamar, I have great appreciation in the whole greatest thing, and I was just being but yeah, he's definitely one of them.
LaToya Tucciarone:Well, some do consider him to be Absolutely, I would say he's.
Sho Baraka:I mean, he's one of my favorite.
LaToya Tucciarone:Right right.
Sho Baraka:I think he is, uh, just phenomenal. It's just. It's kind of hard to to explain. Here's the thing I don't want to do during this interview.
LaToya Tucciarone:Okay, okay, and I find a lot of academics do this, yeah.
Sho Baraka:And I'm not saying that I'm an academic, necessarily but I find that when people try to um, give language and critique and commentary to albums, they put their own thoughts, yes, and I think it's good for art to do like art allows us to do that, like you know great interpretation of a particular scene, of an image, as you were talking about with. Monet, it's easy for us to say, oh no, this is what it means, right, but I also find that we do that exceptionally poorly, or?
Sho Baraka:well within hip-hop artists, we attribute things right to what they're saying. So what I'll say is what I think. Yes, is to me what I think he was probably communicating, but I don't want to say for certain. But he is an individual who gives a lot of opportunity for exploration and interpretation. He is probably one of the best at that, very similar to singer-songwriters of the past, your Dylans, your Lennonsens, your people who were very esoteric.
Sho Baraka:and hip-hop, in a sense, likes to think of itself being esoteric, but I think a lot of it isn't right quite as it is kind of straightforward it is, and it I think it is for the artist.
LaToya Tucciarone:It's pretty straightforward for them, but I think that they realize that when you perhaps put your art out there, it becomes esoteric.
Sho Baraka:Yes, and I think that's one of his greatest attributes and simultaneously one of his greatest probably handicaps and the reason why he probably is not a bigger pop artist or pop star, because he gives himself up to the process and the art more than thinking of like what can I make that will get this particular billboard or this particular?
LaToya Tucciarone:commercial spot Right.
Sho Baraka:So anyway, yeah, there's there's always a negotiation you have to make as an artist, and I think he is probably the pinnacle of what of an example. He is, the the paragon, if you will, of how to do how to be an artist, yeah, but also how to be pop culture right yeah right, but what do you think it is?
LaToya Tucciarone:before we get into the specifics of the album, what do you think it is that allows him to blend those two worlds? Because not everybody can do that right. I mean, there are so many people who either swing to one side of the paradigm or the other. Either they are like I am an artiste and nobody understands what they're doing and it's unrelatable and they can't connect, or they're just pop music and they're talking about nothing you know. So what do you think about? Kendrick kind of allows him to blend those two worlds together.
Sho Baraka:This is where I'm definitely going to give it a little bit of my personal like.
LaToya Tucciarone:Yes, please.
Sho Baraka:Assessment or thoughts Cause, I don't.
LaToya Tucciarone:All of this is our personal assessment. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Sho Baraka:Well, there's some things I can communicate, like I definitively know this, because he said this right so I don't know if he's not said this, but I think it has a little bit to do. Well, in general, let me start in general, generalizing it. I think of uh malcolm gladwell's much debated outliers, right you think about how people get to a particular place.
Sho Baraka:It's never necessarily just off of their merit right. There are a lot of circumstances that are surrounding that individual that helps perpetuate them to a particular place, and I think he is a product of that, like he's a product of West Coast music that is very pop culture in a sense, like listen to grow up listening to NWA, snoop Tupac.
LaToya Tucciarone:Right, tupac Right.
Sho Baraka:Even if those people weren't necessarily as popular as he is now.
LaToya Tucciarone:Right.
Sho Baraka:They were the epitome of kind of like what a mass amount of people in California and elsewhere Well they defined Right West Coast. They defined a genre within hip hop yeah A genre within a genre, and he's the product of that, so he grew up in a time that was really important.
LaToya Tucciarone:Right.
Sho Baraka:Also what you'll notice in this particular album. To get into the weeds of it, you'll listen to a song like Wesley's Revenge, or Is that the right name of?
LaToya Tucciarone:it Wesley's Theory. Wesley's Theory.
Sho Baraka:Wesley's Theory and King Kunta, and you'll hear jazz elements. Yeah, or you'll hear certain kind of like stylings that are more is more of like the underground West Coast hip hop, which is like groups like Freestyle, Fellowship, AC Alone, Project, Blow and what that is is.
LaToya Tucciarone:you wouldn't know those names unless you were deep, deep, deep in West.
Sho Baraka:Coast Not only just hip hop, but West Coast hip hop, and so they were like the weirdos of like, with all respect. Because I love like, so I grew up during the same time so they were like the underground weirdos of West Coast hip. Respect, right, because I love like, so I grew up during the same time so they were like the underground, underground weirdos of West Coast hip hop. Wow, and so Kendrick had the benefit of like having this weirdo West Coast influence and also like this gangster popular kind of West Coast influence.
LaToya Tucciarone:Right.
Sho Baraka:And that's the reason why he raps the way he does.
LaToya Tucciarone:Right.
Sho Baraka:Like the cadences and the cause that's more of like the Freestyle Fellowship, the more AC alone kind of the jazz elements that they had, but then kind of like being grounded and granted, I'm not saying that these folks don't ground, but being grounded in social commentary comes from the NWA's, the Snoops and also you also got to understand, like being in Compton, being from Compton.
LaToya Tucciarone:Commentary comes from the NWA's.
Sho Baraka:The Snoop's and also. You also got to understand like being in Compton, being from Compton.
LaToya Tucciarone:Right.
Sho Baraka:In some ways geography matters in hip hop. Yep, Like you have two artists, one artist coming from, you know, Compton and another artist coming from.
LaToya Tucciarone:Canada. No, I said it. I said what I said. I was born in Canada. I was born in Canada. I was born from Canada. No, I said it. I said I was born in Canada. I was born in Canada. So I won't tolerate the disrespect. I was born in Canada, that's right.
Sho Baraka:You didn't stay very long, so anyway uh, let's just say Fayetteville Cause, that's where we are right now so. Fayetteville uh, georgia versus someone who's coming from Compton off rip. Georgia versus someone who's coming from Compton Off rip. There's a privilege in some senses not financial or class prep, but there's a social privilege to say hey, I come from Compton. We are going to perk our ears to the person who's coming from Compton more than the person who says I'm from.
LaToya Tucciarone:Fayetteville and they're like what? Sit your ass down when Right.
Sho Baraka:We don't want to hear from you. You know what I'm saying, right? We don't want to hear from you Right, and so in that sense there's a benefit from that, not only because we're more willing to listen, but because of some of the things that are happening in his society, Right, and the attention that is drawn to those areas, you know, from celebrities, from people, whatever, right. So there in there comes. This cultivation I think is quite important for an artist like him there comes.
LaToya Tucciarone:This cultivation, I think is quite important for an artist like him. It's so fascinating because, I mean, I think he would say some of the same that the, the place he grew up, made him the person that he is, and I think that this album really, I mean definitely dives into his journey with that. You know, I think one of the ways that he was and I'd love to get your opinion on this the way that he was kind of able to bridge those two worlds to you is really one word, to me it's authenticity, right.
Sho Baraka:Absolutely.
LaToya Tucciarone:It's just bleeding from every word on this album and I think that authenticity is just contagious. It's just something that we react to. You can sense it. There's not always words around it, but you were like, okay, this person has lived this and I think that that's what made Tupac, you know, so popular. But yet there was but you still had more of, I think there was more of a pop element to those West Coast artists that you were talking to, more so than even Kendrick, and I think he kind of brought this often, this rawness and authenticity, because even Snoop it's polished.
Sho Baraka:Yeah, so here's where I will push back just a little bit on Tupac.
LaToya Tucciarone:I hear exactly what you're saying I agree. He's a bit polished as well, would you say.
Sho Baraka:I wouldn't even say polished is the right term. What I would say is that you say authenticity. I would probably use a juxtaposition to authenticity or just a word in opposition to that, and say the reason why I think we also love Kendrick is because it doesn't come off as performance Right.
LaToya Tucciarone:It comes off as performance Right.
Sho Baraka:It comes off as genuine Right and so. But I will say pop came off as performance because, although he okay, let me say this, Cause I know people are going to- let me, let me say, let me to some people we knew, pop knew when the lights were on.
Sho Baraka:Right, like he knew, like this is an opportunity although the message was genuine and maybe even knowing who his mom was, who his aunt was, and knowing where he came from, he went to a performing arts school. He wasn't necessarily from the West Coast. He moved from the East to the West. He was a background dancer. He knew the things that he moved from the east to the west. He was a backup, a background dancer. He knew the things that he needed to do in order to get to a particular place. Like most of pox friends will say, like he wasn't really a gangster he was like a great dude.
Sho Baraka:He's a philosopher right he's a smart dude. He was an activator right kendrick is none of the kendrick is just a regular kid from Compton who probably doesn't want to be bothered and he just wants to make really good art and he's like there's no performance in him to that degree where you feel like he is inauthentically trying to gain something, if that makes sense and just to all those folks listening. What I'm not saying is Pop was not genuine.
LaToya Tucciarone:What I'm saying is like he used his performance.
Sho Baraka:Yes, in a way that gave him.
LaToya Tucciarone:I would say would you say so? Where that came to me is, I think T-Pack was more cultivated, if that makes yeah, absolutely so.
Sho Baraka:I grew up. So how about this? I grew up in a. My mom was a Black Panther so very similar to Pop. I was cultivated to almost be an activist. Right I was handed. I was handed books. I was given the autobiography of Malcolm X in junior high to read. So in some senses there was an expectation for me to fight the power.
LaToya Tucciarone:When I was young.
Sho Baraka:And so that does something to you when you get to college. I went to Tuskegee University.
LaToya Tucciarone:That wasn't because I really really, really, really, really wanted to go to Tuskegee.
Sho Baraka:It was because part I was like yeah, I do really want to go to HBCU. There are no HBCUs on the West Coast for those people, so growing up in California, watching school days and different world. I'm like well, this is the trajectory for me, and so there is a cultivation and in some ways, we carry those expectations of other people on you and you're like well, this is what I need to do in order to be that person. I don't think Kendrick feels that.
LaToya Tucciarone:Or he. I think he was just cultivated by something different. Yes, absolutely I think he was cultivated by the streets, his environment. It's him wrestling with that cultivation as he kind of enters into a new space and time as a signed recording artist who's now making money as an individual who probably never, actually wanted that life yeah knew there was something like.
Sho Baraka:Knew he? I imagine kendrick to be like if he didn't grow up in that space, if he he grew up in Fayetteville he would be the nerd who really wanted to just write poetry, maybe rap but was probably reading, you know, Toni Morrison. I don't know what you can hear and to go to a different album of his and Good Kid, Mad City, the Art of Peer Pressure Basically what he's just saying is like I'm the homies but I don't really want to do this yeah, yeah, yeah.
Sho Baraka:I felt that, as a young like, I felt that not to like insert myself into, like kendrick story no I grew up in southern california around gangs, my oldest brother was, like I said to someone on influence, he was in part of the street life right and so that fell on me a lot right but I knew I was like yo, I really want to play dungeons, dragons, right, right and so. But you know what, my homies out here, we smoking weed, we doing this, that's what you do get it the more you're around it, yeah, the more it becomes a part of you right, right so even there are things and what?
Sho Baraka:some of kendrick's lyrics, especially within some of the later stuff. Oh, you're like, I don't love the perpetuation of violence and some of the stuff that he's. You know the way he talks about, but I also understand.
LaToya Tucciarone:That's just a past, of who you are, of where you come from, and trying to reconcile that past with who you are now and and kind of like who you want to be and I think.
LaToya Tucciarone:I think what I really loved about it is how raw his communication is. Like you know, when we talk about that polish, not polish, that kind of cultivate, I just feel like he does not care. You know like he's like, this is the way I talk, this is the way I communicate, and it's funny we can talk about this a little bit because both of you and I are Christians and so you would not grow up thinking let's listen to, I mean, this profanity-laced thing. But I was telling my husband, andrew, that I feel, like Kendrick's, so authentic that to cuss is not a bad word.
Sho Baraka:It's appropriate.
LaToya Tucciarone:Yes, it's a language, it is, it's literally simply the language that he speaks and uh, shameless plug in chapter six of my book.
Sho Baraka:He saw that it was good.
LaToya Tucciarone:I addressed this very thing yes and I used kindred as a reference yes, the wire as a reference to also which uh next time next, but one of the things I say is that I stole it from Richard Pryor.
Sho Baraka:This may be profane, but it's also profound. Wow, yes, boom, so sometimes language is necessary to communicate the truth of a thing.
LaToya Tucciarone:One hundred percent, and I feel like he just does not hold back on this. Let's take a break and hear from our sponsor. Let's take a break and hear from our sponsor. So I can tell that this album has been very meaningful to you. Why is it personally meaningful?
Sho Baraka:to you. This is a dope album. That's number one. We ain't even got to get too deep into it, right, right.
LaToya Tucciarone:If you have not listened to this album. People like for real and we have it here on vinyl. Beautiful, but it's meant to be, would you say. It's meant to be listened through, like if you can sit down it has to be listened to.
Sho Baraka:Yes, like all the way through, at least the first time you listen? To it and then the second time you'll be like, oh, you listen to it, listen to it. And then the second time you'll be like, oh my gosh, when you come to a revelation at the end, and then you'll want to go back and listen to it again and then after that listen as you please, right it's kind of like a systematic theology or a biblical theology, but you want to read through it and then, once you read through it, then you can come back and okay, this chapter is helpful, right I love this.
Sho Baraka:I love this album mainly because it's a really good album. Yeah, and I just like artists who you could tell put thought and effort into a project so much like don't you, don't you like. I would even say this I like bad stuff that just has good thought and effort into it.
LaToya Tucciarone:It's like, as long as I feel like you put a lot of time into it Right right, right right. It's purposeful, exactly it's like.
Sho Baraka:I'll give you a chance because I'm like at least you put a lot of effort into this.
LaToya Tucciarone:You know what I mean, right.
Sho Baraka:So that's one reason. The second reason why I love this album is I love the musicality. Yes, as an artist myself, I love jazz. Yep, well, I've grown to begin my love and appreciation for jazz.
Sho Baraka:I don't want to make it seem like I'm out here. And so over the past, you know, maybe close to 10 years now I've grown to appreciate, like jazz, and I think what jazz has helped me do is help me become a better writer. It's helped me become a better artist. And when I hear, when I listen to this music and I hear, like Terrence Martin and and all of his, you know music, his his contribution to it. I just love the sound of this album.
LaToya Tucciarone:Yeah.
Sho Baraka:I think Kendrick is a wonderful writer. Yeah, he's also a great storyteller. Um, I think the third reason why I love it is the social commentary around it. Yeah, yeah, things he talks about and the way he talks about him, right like he doesn't you? You talked about authenticity. The one thing I would also say about kendrick is he's self-aware very there's nothing worse than an artist who is absolutely sure about themselves and they are off about what they view themselves, as I think he's very aware, and that's one of the things that I think gave him a victory over Drake Drake is not self-aware.
Sho Baraka:Although I love Drake, drake is also one of my top five artists as well. But I think the thing that Drake doesn't Drake doesn't understand culture the way that Kendrick understands culture. No, I'm joking so I think his self-awareness and even in songs like the Black of the Berry is an example of that where he talks about. You know how else can I say why did I weep when Trayvon Martin was in the street? When gangbanging makes me kill a nigga, blackening me hypocrite? You know?
LaToya Tucciarone:what I'm saying, and that's the end of the song and we out.
Sho Baraka:So I think it's just stuff like that, that, I think well, also to speak about the social commentary.
LaToya Tucciarone:I think it's very easy to give social commentary from like up here right like looking down, you know, or to even give social commentary from. I used to live this way. I've stepped out of it. Now I'm talking about it from this other place, but I feel like.
Sho Baraka:Or the Wikipedia version of social. You didn't Google something real quick, Right, right right and be like oh, I understand it. Let me talk about it now.
LaToya Tucciarone:You know. But I feel like he kind of weaves in not just a social commentary of where he grew up in the system, but of himself and himself in the system, and those two things are so like woven together and he's not afraid to go there with himself. He's not afraid to go there with himself, so it's not just about let me talk about all these external problems and you know the police and the institutions, and I'm going to talk about those too.
LaToya Tucciarone:But there's also my own wrestling, my own, you know, sense of broken self-worth, my own temptation, you know, when you talk about Lucy being, you know, it's Lucifer and his own kind of wrestling with those things. That, I just think, brings this um deep humanity back to his work as well, absolutely, and I think it's the.
Sho Baraka:You know it's not a both sides-ism, but the way that he addresses he's, I think it's the. You know it's not a both sides ism, but the way that he addresses he's, I think he's. He's what's the word I'm looking for. He is, um, he's wise and understanding in some ways, understanding how to address a problem. It's very simple. It makes me think of, like Jesus, when he approaches the, the situation where the woman is about to be stoned by the religious leaders. He addresses the system, he addresses the people behind the system, but he also looks at the woman and says, hey, sis go and sin no more.
Sho Baraka:We could be out here you know holding, and so Kendrick does that. He talks about policing, he talks about, but he also, he also was like well, gang violence is an issue too, y'all right, but he also understands, like the institutions perpetuate this kind of way so so, yeah, so I love that about him and the there's I forget what number it is.
Sho Baraka:This may be for the other reason is I love as I go back, kind of to regress back to earlier in this conversation I love the. The backpacker is a, you know, the backpacker, social conscious aspect of him and the pop culture kind of yeah gangster rap like he's.
Sho Baraka:He's done a wonderful job of marrying that as yeah as an artist, and so the fact that you can go from a song like king kunta all right to a song like Black of the Berry or Complexion and you feel like all of the all of me who I am at Show Baraka is being satisfied on this album, like I'm getting the rappity rap but I'm also getting the very pop culturalicious you know, jam out, yeah, exactly so um which I think that song itself needs a whole episode right right, but that's um.
Sho Baraka:I'm wondering if there's other reasons why I love zone. I'm sure there are, but those are I feel like there's some.
LaToya Tucciarone:You know, there's only some similarities between the two of y'all and your story, oh yeah.
Sho Baraka:And then you've got the religious elements, I think the motifs, the religious motifs throughout the album as well.
LaToya Tucciarone:Yeah, I think he hits it all. I think he hits, you know, our physicality as people. I think he hits our the mental health side of it and as we all seek to love ourselves as he kind of I love you, you is just insane and just so raw. But just realizing I have this influence and this power now and what am I going to do with?
Sho Baraka:it.
LaToya Tucciarone:And I've misused it and it's almost like this motif throughout the whole album. It's like that poem kind of keeps coming back and, you know, making cameos like in different songs, as he's just trying to figure himself out, and I think it's something we can all relate to absolutely, you know.
Sho Baraka:Also, while all of my favorite people go to south africa, yeah, to find themselves.
LaToya Tucciarone:dave chappelle kendrickrick myself, myself as well.
Sho Baraka:So no, yeah, it's, that's dope, that's great.
LaToya Tucciarone:Yeah, what is this song? The Cost of a Dollar. How much is it? How much a dollar?
Sho Baraka:costs. So a buddy of mine, I taught a class up at Wake Forest Divinity School and it was on hip-hop, politics and race and whatnot. And the gentleman who, uh, who, had me come down to teach the cast. Derrick hicks is a wonderful brother. He actually wrote an article, uh academic piece around that song, which I think is phenomenal, and so, if you have a chance, google search it. I don't know what academic journal it's in, but Derek Hicks, kendrick Lamar. How much does the dollar cost?
LaToya Tucciarone:But yeah, I mean even the wisdom to um, if you don't know how much a dollar costs, is essentially Kendrick's interaction in South Africa with a homeless man who asked him to give him money, and the, the dialogue and the interaction that they have. But even the wisdom to understand the profoundness of that moment and to write a song about it. Yeah, just the.
Sho Baraka:If it was real or not. Here's the thing about artists Sometimes you don't make up a story.
LaToya Tucciarone:That is true.
Sho Baraka:But I think, even in that, like the profoundness, just the self-awareness, to be like, shout out to you and the Ted Lasso I just wanted to say that because I love Ted Las but I think, even in that, like the profoundness, to just the self-awareness to be like, yeah, Shout out to you and the Ted Lasso I just, I just want to say that, because I love Ted Lasso, thank you for honoring my Funko Pop collection.
LaToya Tucciarone:Huge Ted Lasso fan, so oh yeah.
Sho Baraka:I just can't. Those are the only ones that are that I keep. My eyes keep because of the red.
LaToya Tucciarone:But oh, you don't see my Golden Girls. That's awesome, my golden girls. That's also. There you go, which, by the way, is literally the funniest show of all times. I don't care if you black, white man woman. You all people should watch golden girls no, you and patrice need to sit down and watch some golden girls, but I used to watch it back in the day.
Sho Baraka:I just, I just can't say that it's the funniest. I remember back in the day like it was like Nickelodeon.
LaToya Tucciarone:Nick and Knight or whatever it is. You're a new person.
Sho Baraka:now We've moved into a new stage of life show, a new age group.
LaToya Tucciarone:I don't know if Golden Girls is going to be the show of choice for that new transition.
Sho Baraka:That is hilarious, so anyway yeah, this album excellent on so many levels. Well, let's talk about the lyrics.
LaToya Tucciarone:I think what a lot of people underestimate that every time I hear a Kendrick song, the level of words, not just the like, the amount of words is one thing, the use of words, but like the cadence of the words. I could never even remotely. I mean just genius.
Sho Baraka:He's phenomenal.
LaToya Tucciarone:And, if most of you guys didn't know, he's actually the first artist outside of jazz and classical music to win a Pulitzer Prize.
Sho Baraka:Yeah, for the album Damn, which also is probably one of my favorite albums. Right Side note how much did you, Mr Morales and the Big Steppers, are you a big fan of that album? Did you listen to that?
LaToya Tucciarone:no, okay, so you talk about mental health.
Sho Baraka:That album is basically his therapy session.
LaToya Tucciarone:Uh, it took me a while to actually like that album oh really, I wasn't the biggest fan of that album when it first came out. Okay, why was that?
Sho Baraka:Because I felt like it was very so. Sometimes artists can get too personal. And it's like some of the stuff is kind of like you probably should just.
LaToya Tucciarone:Leave that in the journal.
Sho Baraka:Although I know you're giving it to us as a form of you processing your grief and trauma.
LaToya Tucciarone:Right.
Sho Baraka:But it also is very weighty. Right, so it's not as enjoyable as an album like this like where there's an all right and stuff like that.
LaToya Tucciarone:Right right, right, right right.
Sho Baraka:It's very heavy. Okay, okay and it's not just an easy listen, right, and so when you talk about him being wordy, I will say, in some senses that may be a knock on him. Yeah, is that? Sometimes people just want to be able to be like, allow a song to wash over them. Right and just to be able to like turn on a song and not just have to think about what you're talking about.
LaToya Tucciarone:Right.
Sho Baraka:And he doesn't really allow you that. On on on some of these, on some of those items.
LaToya Tucciarone:Again, I think it's one of those things where I get this sense. Of course, this is my opinion that the I think he's very thankful that this has brought him a fame and money and things like that, but it is. I think it is therapy for him.
LaToya Tucciarone:I think he is one of those creators that just has to create, and he's like I'm just going to put it out there in the world and then you take it as you want to take it, and I just have mad respect for that and I agree, and I will say even as my, for my own self.
Sho Baraka:I like these are practices that I think I even take up in the sense of I don't necessarily make music for people. I make it because I just love the idea of creating art. The best thing that can happen to a me and a Kendrick is that we have the bandwidth to do that without having to make music for, like tax purposes, and you know, to stay within a particular tax bracket or whatever you know, because a lot of your favorite artists, a lot of your favorite artists, a lot of our favorite artists better.
Sho Baraka:Yet what happens is they make their first album phenomenal. Right, because they spent their whole life making that album Right. And then they get stardom and they were like, ooh, I got to keep this.
LaToya Tucciarone:I got to follow that up, I got to follow.
Sho Baraka:And then their second album and third album. You're like Right are found out and discovered by the world, yeah, and then when they realize like, oh, this is, I, enjoy this right, and then they become different people and then you're like we miss you we miss who you were right, right, right and I think um.
Sho Baraka:The one thing that I do that I've also noticed that kendrick does is that they just take time he takes time he doesn't feel the pressure to have to make music right, right and music. That was also exemplified in his response to Drake. Drake makes a diss track and he's like I'm going to give you I think he gives him 20 something hours to respond.
LaToya Tucciarone:He's like I'm going to take as long as I want to, because that's the process for which you make art. And.
Sho Baraka:I think too much of art or culture making. Today is in a hurry.
LaToya Tucciarone:Oh 100%.
Sho Baraka:And I think that lends itself to this idea of productivity. We don't feel like we're productive unless we're always.
LaToya Tucciarone:Right.
Sho Baraka:Social media has created that in us.
LaToya Tucciarone:Right.
Sho Baraka:It rewards us to be.
LaToya Tucciarone:Yep.
Sho Baraka:It's called fast art.
LaToya Tucciarone:You know you got fast fashion and you get fast art and it's cheap and people know and I think the best artists, very few people can make, consistently make good things without rest, and I think Kendrick is an example of somebody who says you know what?
Sho Baraka:I can disappear, live life, come back and and all as well, and I yeah, and give you what I think is unique.
LaToya Tucciarone:So last question what does this piece of art, this piece of pop culture mean to humanity, in your opinion? Just wrap it up, the little bow, that's it?
Sho Baraka:These are one of those questions you emailed before. What does it mean to humanity?
LaToya Tucciarone:Or what do we learn about ourselves as?
Sho Baraka:humans? I think. Well, I guess a different question and I'll answer that first. I think you kind of gave me a good ramp when you talked about what this album is.
Sho Baraka:It's a homage to becoming, homage to becoming, and I think, all of what it means to become, to love yourself, to understand who you are in the world, to understand what the world thinks about you, to understand what it means to advocate for other people as well, and so I think this piece of art and its commentary on humanity itself, I think it's just it's it's second to none. When it comes on humanity itself, I think it's just it's it's second to none. When it comes to hip hop, I think yeah, um, I mean, obviously there are a lot of literary pieces or films that can kind of rival it, but when it comes to hip hop albums, especially within the last 15 years, I would say like I don't know if there are many albums that I would say rival not only this album but his body of work in general, right, his general body of work, because I see Good Kid Mad City.
Sho Baraka:I see this I see Damn. I see those three albums especially, and you can even say Mr Morana I see those four albums, as like this anthology of work that just speaks to culture wonderfully. And each tells its own story. In a sense, it is like a metamorphosis, as we're talking about Pimp a Butterfly. I don't think we even mentioned the name of the album.
LaToya Tucciarone:Oh, yeah, yeah, to Pimp a Butterfly.
Sho Baraka:So we're talking about this metamorphosis of a young man who was unsure of himself, who allowed peer pressure to kind of like cultivate and define who he is to now come into a place where he's finding himself to next album, kind of like wondering if this new evolution of who he is is this.
LaToya Tucciarone:Is it a good thing? Is it a good thing Is?
Sho Baraka:this who I am Like, who do I want to be after now coming to fame, et cetera, et cetera. Oh, now that I have fame, I'm having to deal with the trauma and all of my past hurt and pain, and I'm realizing that these things have affected the people I love. And so it's a good story of evolution and that becoming is that it is becoming, and that you never kind of landed in one space, like you're always growing and I think we as Christians know this like this is sanctification.
Sho Baraka:We would just call it a sanctification process. How am I being sanctified? And knowing that the gospel is continuing to draw me closer to this understanding of who I am and Jesus, and to other people and how I work, and so that is how I would answer that.
LaToya Tucciarone:The first question is what does it mean to humanity? But I think you answered it's essentially the same thing. I think it's. I mean, it's essentially the same thing.
LaToya Tucciarone:I think it's a, like you said, it's a beautiful piece of art that I think, as a partaker, a consumer of it, allows me to get a glimpse of this man's becoming, which I think gives us freedom to become. You know, I think I think a lot of times the things that we listen to can, um, bring about questions in ourselves that we can start to analyze and question the theme of self love. I mean, what person doesn't wrestle with that?
LaToya Tucciarone:And so I think to pimp a butterfly is just another example of something that we can enjoy and consume but that can move us to uh be better human beings absolutely I think at the end of the day.
Sho Baraka:So I love, yeah, absolutely. This album is amazing, um what's your favorite song.
LaToya Tucciarone:What's your favorite song?
Sho Baraka:before we go what's your favorite song? Before we go what's your favorite song?
LaToya Tucciarone:Oh my God, my favorite song.
Sho Baraka:You said you love you. Is that what you said?
LaToya Tucciarone:Yeah, but I don't think that that is like I would say the Black or the Bearded. I mean that he dropped, I mean it just drops and you're like dang, like. I just had the most, I think, visceralceral reaction to that. I don't know if I could pick a favorite, because again this reminds me of like what's going on um. Marguerite's album is another piece. That needs to be the whole thing.
Sho Baraka:You don't just pick and choose.
LaToya Tucciarone:You listen to the whole thing, so it's hard to pick one, because it's it's. Is that a cop out? No, it's not a cop out. I was just saying that you know just a small little tidbit.
Sho Baraka:There's a couple of things and, I think, the reason why this album is also important for this time. To answer your last question, to add an epilogue to your last question is that this thing about the song All Right and how?
LaToya Tucciarone:pivotal. That song was yeah in the album. Song was yeah in the album. Yeah, not only the album, I'm talking about in culture. So during protests people were singing this particular song.
Sho Baraka:Yeah, yeah, yeah, this is kind of like a progeny of, of of gosh.
LaToya Tucciarone:What is it we shall overcome so this is like the 60s had we shall overcome yeah. And the 60s had we Shall Overcome yeah.
Sho Baraka:And the 2010s we have in the 20s we have, we Gon'.
LaToya Tucciarone:Be Alright, you know what I mean, right.
Sho Baraka:And to think that that song actually was not Kendrick's song first.
LaToya Tucciarone:It was actually.
Sho Baraka:Fabulous a rapper. Fabulous Pharrell gave it to someone else and I am so happy that Fabulous said no to that song. Yeah, oh, wow to someone else and I am so happy that Fabulous said no to that song yeah, oh wow, I did not know that, because I don't think this album is what it is without All Right yeah, that's awesome, well, show, thank you.
LaToya Tucciarone:Always a good time, always have so much to offer for people out there who have not listened to this album, who maybe are like I don't listen to hip hop or whatever please don't be like that and give it a try, even if you don't like hip hop, even if you don't. If you just appreciate music, you should listen to this album, but show thank you so much it's been a pleasure, as always. Show how can the people find you.
Sho Baraka:Yeah, if you have intrigued them so much they're like we need to know more, and I have, of course you have.
Sho Baraka:Have my time. Have my time. Ladies and gentlemen. The best way is go to showbarakacom. That's just my website, and on there you'll find all the Instagrams videos. I try to keep it updated so, like the latest things that I'm into, love it. The other thing I will say is that I am an editorial director at Christianity Today, so I am go read some of my writings, but also I am looking for thoughtful individuals out there in the world who want to write.
LaToya Tucciarone:There you go, you know, contribute Boom, have your own little piece of culture on Christianity Today.
Sho Baraka:Yeah, we want people to write about stuff like To Pimp a Butterfly.
LaToya Tucciarone:Yeah, and then we want Christianity to sponsor our podcast, and then we want Christiana.
Sho Baraka:Nade to sponsor our podcast. Okay, all right, that may be possible. It may not be possible, probably not. All right, well, thanks again, but that's how you need to think, I know, right.
LaToya Tucciarone:Right, right. Thank you, show. And thank you to everyone for listening to the Human Pop Podcast. It's pop for humans' sake. We'll catch you next time.
